Just an fyi for those that didn't see this yet.

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Shuttered Grape Street sued by former security firm
Imperial Security, of Roxborough, has filed suit against Manayunk's Grape Street Philadelphia (4100 Main) which abruptly shuttered Feb. 2.

The lawsuit, filed Feb. 12, seeks $15,082.50 from C&C Music Industries, the company that owned the club. Jim Tobin, president of the security firm, alleges breach of contract and fraud over what it says are unpaid fees for security work provided by his firm.

The suit charges that C&C issued two checks to Imperial, both of which bounced. C&C Music Industries partner Bob Coyle confirmed that Imperial worked for the club for several months last year and says Grape Street relieved Imperial of its duties, for reasons he declined to reveal.

Coyle says Grape Street hopes to re-open and is considering doing so in Northern Liberties. We told you last week that Mad River (126 Chestnut) would be taking over the Grape Street lease.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillygossip/Shuttered_Grape_Street_sued_by_former_security_firm.html

ugh, I hope they decide to locate somewhere else or go back to the tiny old cozy grape street pub.

Why? They get some good bands in there and it makes for just one more spot to go hear some live music.

Though it does remind me of someone's comment about the "Manyunkzation" of Northern Liberties a couple years back...

I agree some good bands go through there and being a musician myself, having another venue around is great. I just think they should scale down their current complex ideals and consider being something along the lines of the fire, m room or JB's... or the old grape street pub.

We already have a Finnegan’s

My husband used to work there. The owner told employees the final weekend it was open that they had to look for new jobs. Nice guy eh?
They were using the private security firm after numerous complaints to the PLCB over excessive force used by previous security. We were in there about 2 weeks before the shut down. There were a bunch of skinny young guys in shirts that were just too big for them. When I go in to a bar or club I want to see guys who look like they can stop a truck if necessary, not little guys in pressed white shirts.
A decent live music venue would be nice--but I hope if they come to the area they don't try to have the same set up--a nightclub on one side and live music on the other. Issues with the "nightclub" side were what killed the place. I wouldn't worry about "manayunization"--Grape lost its "beautiful" crowd years ago.

Good points. I can agree with that. If it were toned down to a JB's sized thing it might be a better fit in the area.

I agree that they should try to re-capture the spirit of the old Grape. That was truly a venue for music fans and musicians. I've always said that the newer Grape on Main Street was a dance club which tried to bill itself as a music venue. As a performing musician and a live music fan, it never felt right to me. It always seemed like they were very focused on booking Creed/Nickleback/Three Doors Down/Staind type bands.(I get nauseous just typing those band names). Ok, I'm back...And they were even more focused on getting the bands finished early so they could get on with the cheesy dance club stuff. I guess they were trying to appeal to the frat boy crowd. Although it's not a bad business plan, it's no recipe for a succesful and important music venue.

If anyone from the Grape is reading this, first let me say, I respect what you had tried to accomplish. Secondly, you treated musicians with a lot more respect than most venues. Thank you. But I think if you want to be an important music venue (like Johnny Brenda's for example), focus on the music. Book a great mix of national acts and great local acts. And whatever you do, do NOT book every Creed and Nickelback knock off band out there.

One other thing I'd like to mention to the Grape folks if you're out there - Forget the hip-hop, techno, and dance club idea. I have nothing against those music genres. But in my opinion, the crowd that will frequent a cool, indie music club is very different than the crowd that will frequent the hip-hop dance club pick-up spot. And I don't think the two different crowds really want to hang out with each other anyway.

I really think Girard Ave can develop into an Austin type music mecca. We've already got JB's, The Fire,M Room, and DePinto Guitars. One more truly great music venue would solidify Girard Ave's reputation as Music Row.

Just imagine this....An annual SxSW style music festival right here in Philly, with Music Row as the center piece! Ya never know

Good points. The Grape Street should've never moved from their original location (on Grape St.) because they had a nice little place with live bands almost 7 days a week. But they caved in to serving the obnoxious, shallow dance club crowd and instead ran a meat market and not a music venue. Besides that, nothing in that old Riverdeck location has ever lasted. That should've made the GSP owners weary enough to stay away, not to mention not wanting to wait on frat boys and sorority princesses.

That said, you're totally right about the crowds that frequent the two very different types of venues. However, with Philly being such a yo yo city, I find it hard to believe that the owners will want to shed that image anytime soon. I could be wrong and hope I am, but it seems these nightclub guys close one shop then move elsewhere and open another seedy meat market. I think it comes down to the fact that the meat market makes more money than a dive indie rock venue.

I don't think there's any question that a meat market is more profitable here in Philly, even if it has a shorter life span.

But I think JBs has raised the bar as far a what a music venue can be in Philly. I have no idea if that concept has translated into profit for JBs, but it's been very crowded evey time I've been there.

So I guess the question for the Grape is...do you wan't a venue that maximizes profits or do you want a venue that potentially earns a fair profit and creates something that people will be passionate about and contribute something to help make Philly a world class city? I truly respect either of those appraoches but selfishly, I would love to see our neighborhood be a mecca for music.

Bob isn't the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to bars and clubs. If he tried to do the club/music venue again where would he put it? I can't think of too many places.

Those abandoned buildings next to Azure? You said he wasn't all that bright....

as usual i don't have much to contribute except

1: been to grape st twice, to support smallllll bands... once a few months ago, we were two out of two paying customers there, which was a sad thing!

2: i love love LOVE VC's idea comparing girard ave to austin's 6th st & vicinity. one of my best friends lives out there so i'm a frequent visitor, and always impressed by their local band scene. even their karaoke scene has a tendancy to upstage our local band scene. and for the east coast, i think we rival boston for one of my fave music scenes. but more music venues on girard ave - i'd support it! talk about a way to draw nightlife to that area.

I think JB's is a fantastic place, though limited in size. But it definitely is a great place. But the transition from ghetto avenue to something like Austin is decades in the making. The problem is that part of the city borders the biggest ghettos in the city and it's hard to imagine that two completely different types of cultures could coexist so close together. Not saying it's not possible but not probable given the thug urban culture that saturates this city. It's unfortunate because I also could see great and wonderful opportunities and potential for Girard Ave. as well as other areas far beyond just the little neighborhood that is Northern Liberties. But the people that have lived in those decrepit neighborhoods around and above Girard for nothing or next to nothing aren't going to leave or give up their properties anytime soon, and with them there it's hard to imagine that anyone will invest big bucks. Not putting any class/type of people down, it's just the way it is. There's been a lot of development in NoLibs but it's got a long way to go yet before I think anyone might start plunking down cash for Girard Ave. There are other parts of the city much farther along for an Austin music type of thing, like the upper end of South and Passyunk Square.

The same thing could've been said years ago when DiPinto was still on 2nd with the Tap, Liberties, and 700 Club were the only joints in NoLibs. Approximately 10 years ago or more that was about all that was there and we imagined that 2nd st. could be that hip location with bars and music venues up/down the wide street. But it never materialized. Fishtown, etc. are great but it's also a bit out of the way, at least that's what I commonly hear people say.

I agree that kind of music scene that I enevision is probably a long way off, but it doesn't hurt to dream.

I think one of the problems that Philadelphia will always face is the fact that every neighborhood with potential has somewhat of a culture clash. But that's what urban life is - a mix of cultures. Places like Austin and Chicago are extremely unique cities. There is a degree of cultural segretion in those cities. There is plenty of diversity, but you normally don't find different socio-economic groups living on top of one another the way we do in Philly. And let's face it, a lot of people in Philly like to drink and fight. It's not like that in most other places.

I think that's the main reason why Chicago can have 25 different large neighborhood festivals throughout the summer with no problems. After going to many of the Chicago festivals over the years, I only saw one instance of a fight almost breaking out. Wilco was on stage, and a couple fans exchanged words with each other. Jeff Tweedy leaned into the mic and joked, "Please don't turn this into Altamont". It was an extremely funny comment which had the crowd in stitches. There was no trouble and the show went on.

I remember turning to one of my friends and telling her "a festival like this could never happen in Philly. There would be 100 cops here trying to break up 250 different fights"

Oh well, it doesn't hurt to dream a little.

Put it down on Delaware Ave with the hookers and casinos.

VC, in reference to your comment about the Wilco show, check this out. Its seems the overcrowded and hot conditions during Wilco's residency at the Riviera this past weekend almost brought about the same end result:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/extendedplay/2008/02/wilco-bares-all.html

Thanks for the link. That is a great series of shows. I would have loved to see one of them. I've seen plenty of shows at The Riv in Chicago. It was always a really comfortable place. Not sure what the problem was.

To bring the conversation full circle, I think if that were the Electric Factory, the police would have to be brought in with riot gear and tear gas.

VC
I know Austin well, and as you have recognized, the Girad dream will alway be just that, a dream. You would have to do a MASSIVE gentrification from the Art Museum to Del Ave, then south to Spring Garden for that to ever happen. That, and close the subway stop at Spring Garden/Del Ave The subway stop is half the problem of why NL will always have crime, you have to cut through NL form the hood to to get to the subway. Ever notice there's no Metro stop in Georgetown DC? I know NL is no GTown, and doesn't want to be, just pointing it out.
For the record, I'm in the burbs now b/c of work, but am a former NL'er.

VC, seriously. How many horribly violent shows in Philly have you been to where bad things have happened? Large scale? Live 8, every year the museum area becomes a giant festival for July 4th. Yeah, those events were brutal (not). The violence you get in clubs are at events that Philly's "Wilco demo" wouldn't go to and aren't nearly as common as NBC10 wants you to think.

Chicago's got its rough parts too, not as many anymore because of gentrification, that's all. Moreover a lot of Chicago's solutions for gentrification and pacification (Navy Pier?!?) have reduced a substantial amount of Chicago to a pretty bland place. I've been to Chi for a number of conferences and if you just stick to the large hotel district/Navy pier area, you might as well be in some abstract urban mall space. It's a pain effort for the biz traveller to get out into the real city, you know?

In other words, it's got nothing to do with inherrent cultures. To recycle the phrase in another election cycles, it's the economy, stupid.

I'm not stopping you from telling your ChiTown friends how much edgier your life has become since you've moved here. Just asking you to come up for a breath of reality between boasts, man. The "violence" associated with Philly has nothing to do with its night life, unless you're talking about the clubs and bars turning out potential victims into the streets' wee hours. But that said, I gotta say I've taken some Chicago's El rides in the pre dawn hours that put me far more on guard than I've ever been anywhere in Philly.

Cheese said: Moreover a lot of Chicago's solutions for gentrification and pacification (Navy Pier?!?) have reduced a substantial amount of Chicago to a pretty bland place.

Mike says: I will give you the Navy Pier stab, but to claim that gentrification has reduced Chicago to a bland place is ridiculous. Have you been to the River North, Bucktown, Wicker Park, or Roscoe Village neighborhoods lately? All gentrified and all thriving with their own style and substance.

Cheese said: I've been to Chi for a number of conferences and if you just stick to the large hotel district/Navy pier area, you might as well be in some abstract urban mall space.

Mike says: You cannot possibly take the pulse of city by visiting on one of your business trips, my suggestion for your next trip would be to go beyond your hotel lobby bar and Navy Pier. That area is meant for tourists, not a savvy and seasoned traveler like yourself. Try something else, like one of those dangerous el rides on the blue line up to say the Damen stop and check out Cans or Piece or Lotties or the Bucktown Pub. I assure you these places are anything but bland. Or better yet go to Chicago in the summertime and check out any one of the many neighborhood festivals if you need to get that bland taste of your mouth.

You are essentially reducing your experiences in Chicago to those of someone visiting Philly and only taking in the Liberty Bell, Constitution Center, perhaps a steak wit wiz and jumping on the R1 to get back to the airport. Which we all know is a horribly inaccurate depiction of the city of brotherly love.

Hey Cheesesteak, chill. I agree that the fist fights and other violence that happens in Philly bar/clubs is not happening in indie music venues in Philly. My comment about tear gas in the Electric Factory was meant as joke.

The point I was orginally making was that there tends to be more fights and trouble in bars with the Finnegan's Wake/Grape Street Hip Hop Room/Old City type places than at say the North Star Bar. And if you put that Finnegan's crowd in what is supposed to be a music venue, in my opinion, the venue loses appeal for a music fan.

I'll admit my dream about Music Row is way, way out there. And since I'm not a city planner or developer, I'll stick to just dreaming about that concept.

And Cheesesteak, I grew up in Philly so I don't have any need to tout some newly earned "street cred", which is what I think you were implying. I think I outgrew that type of stuff when I was 17.

I love Philadelphia. I just think there are some cultural issues that are unique to the city.

Mike, your analogy about the Liberty Bell and Navy Pier is right on the mark. "Bland" is probably the last word in the English language that I would use to describe Chicago or even Philly for that matter.

If Navy Pier and the Sears Tower are all you see in Chicago, then you've never seen the city. The same can be said about the Liberty Bell and Independance Hall.

"Mike says: I will give you the Navy Pier stab, but to claim that gentrification has reduced Chicago to a bland place is ridiculous. Have you been to the River North, Bucktown, Wicker Park, or Roscoe Village neighborhoods lately? All gentrified and all thriving with their own style and substance."

Mike, what I'm saying is that a substantial chunk of the heart of the Chicago has been pretty much sold out to the chains, requiring the business traveller and tourist to get out of the "designated zone" to visit Philly. While people lament old city and center city in Philly having "sold out" to some degree, they've still retained something "Philadelphia" to them.

"Mike says: You cannot possibly take the pulse of city by visiting on one of your business trips, my suggestion for your next trip would be to go beyond your hotel lobby bar and Navy Pier. That area is meant for tourists, not a savvy and seasoned traveler like yourself. Try something else, like one of those dangerous el rides on the blue line up to say the Damen stop and check out Cans or Piece or Lotties or the Bucktown Pub. I assure you these places are anything but bland. Or better yet go to Chicago in the summertime and check out any one of the many neighborhood festivals if you need to get that bland taste of your mouth."

I know what you're saying in your admonition, and I agree. It actually irks me when I land in a city and I can't "get out of the zone" because of time commitments, or needing to stick with my colleagues who want to stay near the hotel. On the other hand, Philly doesn't quite have that problem. Tourists and business travellers aren't really thrust into such a "travellers ghetto" as they are in Chi. In fact, Chciago is the worst example of the phenomena I'm describing.

"You are essentially reducing your experiences in Chicago to those of someone visiting Philly and only taking in the Liberty Bell, Constitution Center, perhaps a steak wit wiz and jumping on the R1 to get back to the airport. Which we all know is a horribly inaccurate depiction of the city of brotherly love."

But, see Mike, to do that sorta jaunt there's so much more someone can take in. Even if you were avoiding it by rigidly adhering to "Bloviators Most Homogenized Unstimulating Philadelhia Guidebook -- 2008 Edition" you're going to get a lot more out of Philly than you would if you were in Chicago.

My rant was started on VC's ridiculous claims that Philly doesn't have the same sort of Summer festival junket Chi has because the cultures "too violent." I went off on a tangent on how I find Chicago pretty insular to the outsider (another thing Philly has going for it), but really just thought the notion was b.s.

VC, you know how hot and humid it gets in this city during the summer? On the weekends, more people try to get out than come in for a reason during the summer months. Seriously walking on the sidewalk hotter than a match head, but at night it isn't a different world, it's still danged hot.

"The point I was orginally making was that there tends to be more fights and trouble in bars with the Finnegan's Wake/Grape Street Hip Hop Room/Old City type places than at say the North Star Bar. And if you put that Finnegan's crowd in what is supposed to be a music venue, in my opinion, the venue loses appeal for a music fan."

Why would the Finnegan's crowd go to the North Star bar, or Johnny Brenda's, or even the M Room? Maybe in relocating to NL, Grape Street could somehow recover what it was before it went big. On the other hand, spreading the Finnegan's crowd may not produce an increase in meatheadery so much as dillute it. I got this theory that meatheadery is about crowd density, so if you spread one finite demographic over two joints, maybe they'll be less urine in everyone's plants?

But you've speaking as if "the Finnegan's crowd" is somehow unique to Philly, and no one's every heard of such uncouth behavior in Chicago. That just doesn't square.

I'm with you on the "Traveler's Ghetto" observation, Cheesestaek. That is an interesting and accurate term.

But I'm not getting your last comment about more people leave Chicago than come in to Chicago on a summer weekend due to the humidity. That could be the most inaccurate statement ever made on this message board.

Sorry, VC, vicodin makes my ranting more incoherrent than usual.

About humidity and heat, I was talking about Philly and why we may not have the 25 summer fests or so Chicago has. I think something like the Wilco show you were bringing, while unlikely to produce meatheadery on a massive scale, could produce heat exhaustion issues like that Woodstock on the air base back in 2000 or 99 or whenever.

"Summer culture" or lack thereof in Philly on a grand scale I think is more an environmental thing than something to do with the people inherrently. I mean what happens when the summer ends? All that pent up creative and spectator energy gets released as LiveArts/FringeFest.

I think what I'm shorthanding as "traveller ghetto" probably has a corresponding term in actual urban economic development planning. I've seen it too much for it not to be a philosophy someone's been trading on. San Antonio's Riverwalk is another example that comes to mind.

But I also have to throw a red flag on the comment about Live 8 and the Welcome America show every year. First of all, they are NOT music festivals. Secondly, there is never any trouble at those events because the city doesn't permit alcohol! If they did, there would be anarchy. A true music festival has a few different stages with some local and national bands. And there most definitely has to be beer served.

The Navy Pier, Millennium Park, Grant Park area of Chicago or “travelers ghetto” if you prefer is/was designed with the tourist/traveler in mind. Keep it simple, convenient and central. Of course this translates into blandness, but it works. People will continue to return year after year all the while Daley and his well oiled political machine will reap the fiscal benefits. There is another Chicago that is not for tourists, just as there is another Philly, NYC, and Boston etc.

Philadelphia: It ain’t Chicago, but it’s where I call home.

Cheese: Have you tried vicodin, scotch and chocolate or as I like to call it the Hat Trick®?

Mike, yes re: Chicago and def post Rudy NYC, but I don't think the system is as segregated or ghettoized in Philly, and I'd also say Boston than it is in Chicago, and San Antonio. "The other side" or "real city" is more accessible for tourists/biz junket people/outsiders in Boston and Philly, and I'd throw in San Fran there too than it is in the "tourist ghetto" systems. But I think if we go much further we'll just be splitting hairs.

I'm not saying Chicago's a bad place or anything like that. But I'd say Philly's an easier town to get to know as a visitor than Chicago is, unless you know someone.

Re: the hat trick, and speaking of city-planned barriers, I actually have a lost weekend a few years back from mixing Vico and New Orleans. The chocolate and whisky thing is new to me, too bad I'm nursing an actual injury and don't like to experiment when I'm managing actual pain ... but maybe I'll get me some chocolate.

VC, I see what you're saying, but wouldn't the Mummer's parade and Wing Bowl have a much higher body count if Philadelphia really backed up the violent culture it admittedly does trade on? Yeah, we're not talking sanctioned drinking, but the police are well aware what all those open containers and paper bags both along the route and in the parade itself are all about. Even the most fanciest of bands really don't need a 5 a.m. assembly time to set up before they step off.

Have you ever been to Wing Bowl? There is more than a few fights.

Philly's proximity to the shore surely plays into the city's lack of summer festivals. There is nowhere in close proximity for Chicago residents to escape to every week. That caused Chicago to become it's own vacation spot.