I took 'Babe'[page 20],from Celia and Jimmy in 2007[Now Tinkerbell]. She is the goofiest dog i have ever had! Everything makes her happy!! When she wags her tail it doesn't go back and forth it goes round and round like a helecopter blade and just thinking about her makes me smile!! Sadly tho,she has been diagnosed with 'cardiomyopathy' which means her heart muscle is as weak as jelly,therefore just is not beating effectively. In addition,her gums are red and sore, her teeth are appalling,her breath stinks and i am sure it must be horrendous for her. She eats and drinks ok. I did book her in for a dental scaling and possible extractions to be done a while ago,and it was at that time the heart condition was found. The vet called me and said the anaesthetic was too risky,and could kill her,so proceedure was not done. I have just had a conversation with a different vet,who was really sweet,from the same practice and i asked what she would do if the dog was hers. She said wait till her teeth are so bad that she is suffering,then get her destroyed,or take the risk,get the anaesthetic,knowing she could die anyway. How can i face putting her down coz she has bad teeth?? If she had advancing cancer or had lost the use of her legs,well of course,the decision would be easier as hard as the truth would be. I don't want to take her to her death by getting the proceedure, but i can't bear the thought of taking her in the car with her tail wagging on the way to kill her?!! Has anyone had this with their dog?? I am so sad i wish i knew what to do? How long do i wait? The heart will never get better, so the longer i wait the more chance of her dying under anaesthetic, and yet if i take her soon, she might die sooner than if i kept her? Why is this so difficult? Can someone help me?? Neither of my decisions will be the right one unless she survives the anaesthetic.

Hi Fiona! So sad to hear such sad news...Anyway in my opinion you should take into account the following factors:
1)her life expectancy assessed by the vets,
2)her general condition i.e. Can you see her suffering or struggling in her daily life?
3)the probability rate of death during the anaesthetic,
4)the kind of cardiomyopathy (some of them are less dangerous).

In my opinion I would not put my dog to sleep unless I know it suffers a lot(pain killers do not work well enough etc.)...On the other hand I think it is a bit selfish to keep an animal alive by force, at any cost and in pain to just avoid making the extremely difficult decision.
My friend was in a very similar situation to yours...He said to his dog:"Do not worry I will not let you suffer..." The dog was under medical treatment for some time but when he had seen him suffering a lot he kept his word given to the dog...

Its difficult because you love her...I do feel for the both of you. These kind of decisions dont come easy...Most of us on here have been there at some point or other...The animal has to come first...find out all you can about the condition and more...If then a decision has to be made...please remember your being kind...not cruel. Cuddles for the both of you.

It's a truely horrible situation to be in. There is nothing worse than to be the one to make that final decision.
I had a great vet once and his thought was there were 3 considerations- is the dog eating/drinking?, is the dog able to get about ok? and is the dog able to pee/poo?
When the answer to one or more of these is no then it's time. I think when the time does come your dog will tell you in it's own way. I had an old collie that slept in the kitchen and one night she came and slept beside the bed and to me that was her saying enough is enough. My other old collie just told me with her face that she'd had enough.
Take care,

Michele

Fiona,
My heart goes out to you as I had a similar situation with my beautiful gentle lurcher, Nina, who always had a slight heart murmer.
At age 15 she started to eat less well and just wasn't quite herself. The vets gave her antiobiotics to see if it was a gum infection, and she improved slightly, so they decided to go ahead and descale her teeth. They extracted several but had to stop as she was coming out of anaesthetic. From then on she went downhill fast and started to lose coordination. She couldn't work her front and back legs together properly and her bowel and bladder reflexes didn't work any more. So one day I cooked sausages (her favourite) for lunch in the garden and took her to the vet and she didn't come home - their advice but I knew it would happen. If I had the chance to do it again, I wouldn't have had her teeth done and she might have died with a little more dignity.
Tinkerbell is probably much younger, however, and every situation is different so we have to trust in veterinary advice. Whatever you decide, you will have done it will love and she will understand that.
My very best wishes to you both,
Marion

Well,I know I am a foreigner and understand English in my own way (the Polish way). Maybe it would be nicer to use the phrase "to sleep her" instead of "to destroy her" or "to put her down"...I know it means the same but it sounds nicer, gentler and gives us the impression that we just let her sleep forever. Then maybe it would be easier for us to cope with such horrible decisions we are sometimes forced to make. For any suffering living creature( animals, even humans) "the forever sleep" is sometimes the best solution that brings peace and release from pain and horrible suffering...
I apologise in advance if my perception of the English language is wrong but I still need to learn a lot...

Oh Fiona - this is so heartbreaking. I would absolutely hate to be in your position & having to try & make the best decision for Tinkerbell. I'm a dental nurse & don't know if the human/dog tooth/gum problems are the same but it is a clinical fact that if a human has bad gums & teeth it has a serious affect on Cardiac problems. If it was one of my beloved hounds I would risk the anaesthetic & get her teeth/gums sorted. The thought of her getting toothache, being in pain & unable to eat or drink isn't a nice one especially when pain could be prevented - of course as you said that is if she survives the anaesthetic.
My thoughts & best wishes are with you & Tinkerbell x

Hi, Fiona,
I do feel for you, but maybe its not so bleak as you think right now.
One of my hounds was diagnosed with severe cardiomyopathy at age 10. She was given less than 50% chance of living another 6 months. She was treated with vetmedin and responded very well. A couple of years later she also had to have lanoxin added in. A year later she began peeing uncontrollably and was diagnosed with Cushings and probable adrenal tumour. The Cushings was also successfully treated, and the sad day came at 13 years and 2 months when she just got tired and the vet helped her on her way. But that was three good years she had in spite of a very dicky heart, and the knowledge that she could slip away at any time with a heart attack or just in her sleep. She had to undergo anaesthetic at age 13 and was fine in spite of the heart. I know of other hounds who have continued to live happily in spite of this condition. If your dog is otherwise fine and happy, maybe see another vet? You will probably know better than any vet when your dog is ready to go, and at that time, it is your final act of love for them. Wishing you and your girl the best of luck.

Hi Fiona,

Just to let you know that I am thinking about you at this time as I have been in similar situations in the past and have had to make extremely hard decisions over many sleepless nights at times.

I had a marvellous and sincere vet who looked after my doggies of years (who has now retired) who ultimately helped me decide in many ways throughout the years of the right decisions to make in difficult times. She once said to me "look into your doggie's eyes and they will tell you if the time is right or not, as they will guide you into the right decision". I

I have never forgotten these words and they have always helped me in making what I know now were the right decisions for my doggies at these times.

Hope this helps.

Gwen

Sorry to hear this Fiona, I know how heart breaking a decision it is to make.

When it comes to choosing when to put her to sleep I think the first post from Stan gives about the best advice I could offer - you will know when her standard of life has dropped to the point that you have to make a decision. Michelle is right too, often your dog wll let you know in her own way that the time has come.

Given what you have said about her teeth and the vets advice I personaly would not risk the anaesthetic, and I would enjoy the time you have left with her. I know it's hard, but try to feel happy and positve about the great times you've had together and will continue to have together - you will both feed of each others positivity and make the very best of her remaining time.

Hi Fiona,
We are so very sorry to hear about wee Tinkerbell.
There are the two possible actions. You will hear very valid reasons regarding why each is the right course of action. We feel for you so much but you must, by observation, make the right decision. We can only tell you what we've experienced.
Fritz, when 13 was diagnosed as having a very weak heart. He also had poor teeth and infected gums. The vet recommended not to operate. We put Fritz on Vetmedin for his heart and antibiotics for his teeth infection. You met Fritz. He died 4 years later aged 17. During that period he had times when his mouth appeared sore. He got painkillers and antibiotics and away he went again. Everyone knew him in the kennels, he was very happy and died of very old age last August.
If in that time we had thought his quality of life had gone we'd have taken the other course of action.
We are so sorry and just hope that this post helps a wee bit. Give her one of our biggest cuddles.
Celia and Jimmy.

Goodness me, here come the tears again. Thankyou all so much for your lovely words of encouragement,advise and experiences. The reason that she was at the vets in the first place yesterday,was she got a stick stuck right down her throat!! I have no idea how she did it, but she did it,so off we went,and it had to be removed under a 2minuite anaesthetic!!Hence the subject arising again. So she is feeling so sorry for herself right now!! I have the capsules Vetmedin now. How soon will they be effective enough for the heart muscle to regain some strength? I suppose i should just ask the vet that. I'll do anything, so if she needs the antibiotics in conjunction then thats fine. Stan, your english is perfect,thankyou. Marion,she is only 7years old i've only had her 3years. I actually went online on the advice of a fellow dog walker,whose springer spaniels are my2hound's best pals! In fact Tinkerbell's tail goes at some rate of knots when she is with them,i am sure one day she will lift clean off the ground!! Anyway,where was i,oh,the online thing. I saw lots of treatments to buy, and the option to ask a vet which treatment would suit Tinkerbell. I got a whole list,so as i said to the vet last night they are not going to do her any harm,and she agreed. In fact i saw a tube of the tooth gel in the surgery for sale. The vet said,the problem is the tartar which is as hard as concrete,and doesn't budge,unless its done with their high powered de-scaler. However,if i can help the gums,and reduce the plaque,well that can only be for the good? So i will go with that,and i feel much better for reading all of your replies, Stan,Meg,Michelle,Marion,Shona,Fiona,Gwen,Steve,and last but definitely not least,Celia and Jimmy. I will keep you all posted,re her 'stick' encounter,and the teeth and heart thing. Thanks again maybe she will be ok afterall? xxxx

Fiona, if you feel confident enough and if Tinkerbell will let you, you can get dental scalers and just gently chip away at the tartar build up yourself. If the build up is heavy then patience is the key - it could take weeks to work away at it a little at a time. Years ago I saw a trainer do it with a penny! It's quite satisfying when a big flake of it chips away!!!

You can get them quite cheaply from Canine Chemists - their website is www.hyperdrug.com, or eBay

Steve is correct Fiona. Maybe one of Tom's friends could have a descaling connection.
Celia and Jimmy.

Fiona, you can also ask the vet if Corsodyl gel is suitable for dogs. I am convinced that it works in case of people having gum problems. You do not have to use a toothbrush when administering it because it is not a toothpaste. You may put some on the tip of your finger and gently massage the gums for a while. It is good to use soft disposable gloves to administer it(maybe not rubber ones because they may cause some friction). I have seen quite a few people whose gums have got much better after using this gel.It is not for teeth but mainly for gum problems.
In many countries (also in Poland) Co Enzyme Q10 (in all pharmacies without a prescription) is administered to all people having cardiomyopathy issues. Please, ask your vet if it is suitable for dogs as well. It is very cheap, easy available and recommended to all people having heart problems and to the elderly. It strengthens the heart muscle.
In my opinion the two things are worthy of asking the vet about.
Chin up!

You can read about Co Enzym Q10 on this website:
www.yourhealthbase.com/coenzyme_Q10.htm

Not sure if it is advisable for animals but worthy of getting information from the vet.

Hiya.Thanks i looked at the link. I actually got a dental pack from Asda ages ago,but it only contained that thin pointed metal instrument,and the round dental mirror. The pointed thing was so sharp that when she moved,it slid into her gum,so it bled.What i did then was tried to use it 'side on',and it was a bit better. I had thought perhaps if i got eyebrow tweezers,i could use the flat end of them? I used sensodyne toothpaste too,and that seemed to help. Maybe the mint helped cool and soothe her gums. Anyhow,everyone has been so kind and given me some hope. Her throat is getting a bit better, she managed her whole tea tonight, i made it soft. I'll keep you posted,and thanks again to everyone for everything..xxx